Why Smart People Still Make Money Mistakes - Episode 142
In today's episode I sit down with John Dinsmore, a marketing professor and author of The Marketing of Debt, to talk about why money choices can be so tricky. We share how even people who study finance still make mistakes, and how companies use smart tricks to get us to spend more than we should. We break down how credit cards, loans, and status symbols are sold to us, and what steps we can take to fight back and make better money moves.
About our guest:
John Dinsmore is a Professor of Marketing at Wright State University and the author of The Marketing of Debt: How They Get You. His research focuses on financial decision-making, payment methods, and mobile applications, and has been published in top journals including Psychology & Marketing and the Journal of Business Research. He is a frequent contributor to outlets such as Forbes, CIO, CBS Marketwatch, and U.S. News & World Report, and has spoken at major conferences like the American Marketing Association and the Association for Consumer Research.
At Wright State, Dinsmore teaches courses in digital marketing, strategy, and creativity, earning multiple teaching awards. His business cases, published through Harvard, are taught in MBA programs worldwide, and he has provided executive training to organizations including the U.S. Air Force and Speedway Corporation. With 14 years of industry experience before academia, he brings a practical and research-driven lens to understanding how people make money decisions. He lives in Dayton, Ohio with his wife, two sons, and their bulldog, Creed.
John Dinsmore's Website
John's new book, The Marketing of Debt: How They Get You
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema: [00:00:00] Welcome, my financially intentional people.
We're joined today by John Smore. We're gonna be talking about money, spending debt, all of those great things. 'cause he has wrote a book that addresses all the great things about money and our money psychologies and why we do what we do with our money. So welcome John. I'm really happy to have you on the podcast.
John Dinsmore: Thanks, Sima. Good to be here.
Naseema: Of course. Now let's just talk about your background. I know you're a university professor, but what got you interested in the topics of money and the things surrounding money?
John Dinsmore: So I, becoming a professor is a second career for me. I'd worked a while in industry, mostly in tech, doing marketing and then, i, I went back to school during the great recession and you have to pick a research area. So I do some things related to tech, but when it came to writing a book I just, things in tech changed too fast.
And [00:01:00] my other area of research is about financial decision making mostly because I've. Taken a ton of classes in finance, and yet I still find that it's hard that I make mistakes. And so I, I think a lot of people, when they start researching something, they usually wanna learn about themselves.
And so I started researching this to figure out, why was I not conquering this? So yeah.
Naseema: So you mean people that know all about money and study it still make financial mistakes? I can't believe that.
John Dinsmore: Yeah, absolutely. So I guess there's two main things. One just. Having a good knowledge base is only part of the equation of making a good financial decision, right? You, you have to be in the right context, have enough time, the right information, and all of these things.
So any of these things can go awry in the process and you can still make mistakes, even if you've taken a million finance classes. Just if you're in the wrong situation or if you're not feeling your best you can make a big mistake.[00:02:00]
Naseema: Yeah, I think a lot of people, I. Are really reluctant to change their finances and , because they have made mistakes, they're just like, I'm just not good at this. And just throw in the towel. So I think it's just really important for them to understand that we all make mistakes.
Even the people with the best of knowledge, even people, in the finance space still do these things. But the biggest lesson is to keep on going, to keep on learning, to keep on growing, but not let that stop you from. Working on your money challenges?
John Dinsmore: No, absolutely. I think fear and anxiety leads, there's the old saying that what stress makes you stupid? And it doesn't. Actually make you stupid. But in the moment it blocks your access to things you'd otherwise be able to access. So the best thing you can do typically is even though I, I think almost everyone finds financial decisions, angst provoking, is to take a deep breath and get help.
If you feel like you don't understand something, or at [00:03:00] least don't commit to something if you aren't sure that you understand it.
Naseema: I That is great. I know that you are a marketing professor and so you understand a lot of what goes into persuading people to spend and to be consumers, and I don't think people understand how those messages. Have been in front of us since we could understand things. Like my daughter's too, she knows what McDonald's is.
She asks for sushi for dinner last night. Yeah. And all of that is because of some kind of marketing, some kind of programming. And in order for us to fix our financial mistakes, we almost have to do that same kind of programming, in reverse. And I know that. You have a book that talks about like dead in the Traps and how people get you to spend can we talk a little bit about the things that you've discovered?
John Dinsmore: And you talk about, it's [00:04:00] from the cradle onward, people have some sort of concept about money and status and things like that. And part of my research on financial decision making it comes from an area they call evolutionary psychology, which is really looking at what going back to the early days of humans roaming the earth.
Is there anything that we bring with us from those early days and a big part of it is status, right? Back when we were living in caves, status was not about, wearing the cool shoes or driving the nice car. But what status would get you and typically status came in the way of, if you were a more physically imposing person, status would back then, right?
And. When you had status, what you found was people might just give me food. I might not have to go out and, find it. And the mate that I had my eye on, the mate's more likely to have their eye on me if I have this status. So that's way back then. So now instead of physical dominance, it's financial dominance.
Money is at, is. [00:05:00] Undercurrent at the very least in almost everything that we do. And whether people consciously or unconsciously we all take cues from others about where we think we are in the hierarchy. And a lot of times that can. Encourage us to make some really stupid decisions.
Right. So there's a section in the book where I talk about gold cards right back in the day with gold cards. When American Express introduced it, it was a card specifically targeted for people with, lots of financial resources and it quickly became the status symbol. And so other credit card companies started slapping gold, diamonds, platinum on all their cards, including some that were specifically targeted to people with bad credit.
Uh, and what, and so clearly it's not a true symbol, some of these cards of financial status, but when people who are lacking. Financial status get these cards, they use 'em a lot more. Because it feels good because it can become like [00:06:00] a socially visible cue to others that they have status.
And if you're a person of with limited means spending more than you should, then that's, that's spells trouble.
Naseema: I think that that's really important. I just think about lounge access and like the American Express, like Platinum card and of course I feel like they, because it's desirable for so many people, like they opened it up to so many people now. That. Even though, yes, it is a status symbol, it's been watered down.
But the thing is, I think people are chasing these status symbols on these cards. Even though I think the fees on my Chase Sapphire card are going up to $750 in oh, September in next month, and I'm just.
John Dinsmore: Oh, like an annual fee.
Naseema: Yes, and I'm just like, even though I could technically afford it, like I think that like [00:07:00] these credit card companies know what they're doing when they increase the access especially to people who shouldn't necessarily be putting all that money on credit cards. And it's a dangerous territory to get in for a lot of people.
John Dinsmore: And there's. And plus, they'll get you in with an introductory rate, right? And you're committed. And especially as a parent, you're super pressed for time, right? So it's not like you check in every month to make, see if your interest rates shifted.
So you'll get some long. Exhausting looking thing, telling you your interest rate gone up without you. You're not gonna read that and neither am I. There was a study by some marketing professors about terms and agreements for apps. And I'm not sure if anyone has ever read, terms and agreements of these things.
And they did a study to and on average to read all of these things. It would take the average person 20 working days to read all of, for [00:08:00] all the things that they download or that they sign off. Four. So obviously no one's reading any of that stuff. And unfortunately in some of those things comes things like, Hey, by the way, your interest rate just went up and stuff like that.
So we are at a disadvantage, right? Because who has the time, money, and energy to monitor all these things? And the other thing is there's typically so many prices associated with these debt instruments. People will remember the introductory rate, but they probably remember nothing else.
And there's a lot of, traps in there that can get people paying a lot more, like seven 50 bucks for an annual fee, which is extraordinary.
Naseema: It is crazy, right? That used to be the real, real, real, real, real high end of fees. And I think that they're trying to normalize that now. But it all goes back to what you were saying is creating these status symbols in order to encourage people to participate in consumerism, right?
And, I know like before you said it [00:09:00] showed up in the status symbols as far as like physical strength, but now it's really like your buying power or the perception of what your buying power is. Or the perception of just pure, like having wealth. And I wanna talk about that in the context of I hear a lot about rich people don't need to flaunt their wealth. But people who are rich appearing will do everything that they can to show like that they have money. What do you think about that?
John Dinsmore: Yeah, I think so. I think it's can money buy happiness? There's a famous researcher, Dan Gilbert, he does like commercials for financial planning and stuff like that. And his research on happiness is showing, can money. Make you happier? If you're living under a bridge, sure.
Or if you're feeling down about something, treating yourself to something can make you feel better in the short term. But for some people who are more compulsive [00:10:00] shoppers those moments get shorter and less meaningful. In the meantime. They're getting themselves deeper in debt.
And one of the tricks with credit cards is studies have shown that we don't contemplate. The wisdom of purchases as much with credit cards where it is this kind of very slick fast track for just, you swipe your card, you move on, without a tug at your conscience and, and you get the fun of having something new.
So in a lot of cases, yeah, it's I, I think there's a lot, that happens with messaging to people in terms of if you have these things, you'll be happier. Or if these other people have these things, you need to have them too. And I think that does a disservice, I think, to a lot of people.
Naseema: Definitely but in your book, the Marketing of Debt, what are some other ways that debt is marketed to us that we might not realize is happening?
John Dinsmore: I, here's something that I, I was surprised when I found it, but I think especially if finance makes [00:11:00] you a little anxious we have a tendency to think that. The amount we pay for a loan or a line of credit is based purely on our credit scores. And research has shown that that's not the case actually.
What the biggest determinant of the amount of money or the price that you pay for your credit or debt. Is the amount of effort you put into your search so just like shopping for a car or anything else. The more places you look, the more questions you ask. The more effort you put in, the better you're gonna do.
But dealing with finance. A lot of times makes us feel anxious. Maybe we don't feel like we're as smart as we should be on it. And so we have a tendency but to take the first thing that that comes along. And usually that's a pretty big mistake. I know from my personal experience when I finally learned to get over the angst of dealing with credit and debt and ask questions and look around, I started getting a lot better rates.
Naseema: That is very true, [00:12:00] but I think it also goes hand in hand with this kind of frictionless consumerism. So like Amazon is really good at this, right? Decreasing the friction, getting you to buy as soon as possible. And I think. We don't like friction and like friction can look like comparing interest rates.
And it could be like if the offer is put in front of you and you can get it done really, really fast, why would you go and see if you can save some money? Because it just seems oh, this is easy. This is pretty straightforward, and I think that. People are always gonna take the easiest route, especially now because we're used to getting things really, really fast.
John Dinsmore: No, I agree. And as amazing as Amazon is and, and the way they've engineered that, as well as a lot of these other apps and sites. It is frictionless, right? The opportunity to give into impulse is incredible. Where if you go back 20, 30 years, if you had to get in your car and drive to the mall, you're [00:13:00] probably gonna cool off a little bit by the time you get to the mall, right?
But you get the offer and then maybe you get some extra offers on top of it to get you over the threshold. And so it is, we are increasingly a society. Built for speed, not for thoughtfulness, and that's not really a good thing when it comes to managing your money.
Naseema: Exactly, and it's like you, you are always gonna go for that first thing in front of you. I know I teach people to do like comparison shopping, how to do it and what it looks like and actually to click through, but it actually, takes a lot of time. And I did wanna touch on the fact that you said that,
getting the best rate isn't always just about credit score and I do wanna touch on the fact that. For some people and for some communities it isn't just about credit score either. I wanna talk about like in your research how marketing I. Is targeted to different demographics because I feel like oftentimes products marketed to, the black and brown [00:14:00] communities are not the best products, right?
They have high interest rates, they're predatory and all of those kind of things. And historically when we're searching for things like we can you used to go into a bank and ask for a loan, but you weren't often. Offered the same interest rates and the same product lines as the next person.
So I think that I just wanna touch on that a little bit in your research because I think that that is not always just that black and white for a lot of people. And oftentimes a lot of people are expecting not to get the best rate, even if they do have good credit scores.
John Dinsmore: Yeah, it reminds me a, a little God, there's a bunch of different directions I, we can go in on this. So one a study that, and, and I mentioned in the book it looked at, inner cities which tend to be, primarily non-white populations, right? So places that are less affluent in inner cities.
And this also happens, I think, out in, rural areas, less dense areas with more of a white [00:15:00] population. One you have. Predatory lenders that target, payday loans, car title loans, stuff like that usually gravitate towards these areas. And they are looking to prey on a less sophisticated and.
Possibly and not without reason, more anxious population when it comes to dealing with this stuff. So a recent study showed that if there's a, blood bank, a place where you can sell your plasma in poorer neighborhoods, use of payday loans goes down, I forget the percentage, but it's 20% or something like that.
The problem for a lot of folks is not that they. Don't understand, right? That, that some of these places that don't have their best interests in mind, it's that they have no options, right? There's not a lot of commercial banks that tend to, wanna locate in either the, inner city or out in rural areas.
And so people have to take what they can get. So that's one aspect. A lack of options for people with limited means. I, think another thing is also when you have a lot of [00:16:00] brokers, I'm sure there's disclosure of different financial relationships. In the fine print of all those things that none of us have the time to read.
When you look at research on discrimination and lending it's significant, right? Consciously or unconsciously it's happening. And I think it's, it's unfair and it's, not right. But what can you do as someone if you feel like you're being targeted in that way?
And I, and it's you really have to. You really have to work hard because it's, living where we live, we can take for granted that we can go around the corner and there's gonna be a bank there that's not. Crazy, right? But if you're living in one of these areas, you don't have that.
And so people may, if you live in one of these areas, people might be like why do you use a payday lender? It's what choice do I have? And the other thing that I think a lot of these, if you look at like payday lenders and. Car title loans, which only some states have limited the amount of interest that they can charge.
And some of those laws are like, you can't charge more [00:17:00] than 300%, right? It's geez, that was the best you could do. That's where they started to get pushback at 300%. But what they will do is they won't call interest rates. Interest rates, they'll call them convenience fees and things like that.
So where. You'll look at something. So in the book, I look at a co an ad by a payday lender. And so they say we have a convenience fee. If you're borrowing like 200 bucks then your convenience fee is like $25 or something like that, right? And you might think to yourself that's 12%.
That's not great. But if you're doing that every week. As a percentage of your money compounding, it comes out to like hundreds of percent. And on that webpage of that lender they have the computation in the fine print and they're like, yeah, this equates to 300%.
But of course that's not in their ads and that's not a place you're gonna look. Yeah, I, I, there is ample opportunity for people to be treated unfairly and not as well as a lot of other [00:18:00] people. And I think we need more rules and laws for these at the federal level. I don't know if we're gonna get that in the next couple years.
But, hopefully at the state level because what I think culturally we wanna say, let the buyer beware. But at the same time, what if we have people who are. Know what they're getting into and have greater opportunity to manage their money. That's gonna be good for all of us, right?
How many businesses are gonna be started, how many homes are gonna be built or bought if people are managing their money well, but yeah, there is pushback even at limiting interest to 300% some places. It needs a lot of work, I guess is what I'd say.
Naseema: Yeah, I think , the bigger lesson for people is to not settle, do your research and understand that, there are different lenders and there is a lot of opportunity out there for you to work with people who can, and we'll give you fair rates.
John Dinsmore: Yeah.
And be
prepared to
Naseema: yeah, yeah, exactly.
Be prepared to walk. So [00:19:00] just as an example, when I bought this house it's a, a new build and they always have deals if you go with the lender and all of that kind of stuff. And the incentives are really, really good. But sometimes the incentives won't outweigh. Like what, what you're gonna get in the long run, right?
The interest rate that you're gonna be paying. And I remember credit score perfect me and this financial, this financial wellness space and me having a good down payment, like coming and they telling me that my interest rates is gonna be two points above which what I know they offered somebody else.
And I'm just like, Hmm, this seems unfair. Is there something that we can do about it? Without getting frustrated, they're like, no, that's the best rate. So I go to my friend who's a broker, a mortgage broker, and I'm like, this is the rate. And they gave me and she's no, that's not, that is a crazy rate.
And [00:20:00] so I ended up having to threaten to sue. Threatened to walk out of my contract and I think they compromised and gave me my incentives anyway because I did not go with their lender. But it's like the amount of fight I had to put in to be able to just. At an equal level at somebody with all of my same financials is insane.
And yes, I think that we still have a lot of improvement, but I think it just I just want to tell people not to compromise on those kind of things.
John Dinsmore: And I think in, in a lot of cases, I, was the builder explicit about, they're making money back from the lender, uh, on that, right? Probably not so much.
Naseema: Of course not.
John Dinsmore: car dealers, they make money off of referring you to their in-house, whoever they've signed a deal with.
And I've gotten jacked up on a mortgage and on a car before, not going in, knowing what was going on. Mm-hmm. you walk in [00:21:00] with a pre-approval letter or offer, all of a sudden people are gonna be a lot more accommodating. It's terrible that you have to do that, right? It would be nice to be able to trust folks and just think that they're being fair with you.
But a lot of these places, the more money they can make off of you, the more money they're gonna make for themselves. So you are, comparison shopping. Having something in hand is, is probably the best thing you can do for that.
Naseema: Yes, yes. All right. What are some more dead traps and some more ways we get caught up.
John Dinsmore: One of the things that you see often is so inherent in debt usually is you have to you get it now and you pay for it in the future. But there's a lot of research about how when people think about stuff being just a little bit in the future we tend to think of it. A lot differently, right?
An example I use is if someone asks you for help moving today, you're probably gonna look around and be like, oh, I've gotta take my daughter out to this thing. I've got all these things to do. I, can't help you. But if they say, would you commit to it in two weeks from now, you're [00:22:00] probably gonna commit.
If it's a good enough friend, right? It's moving's no fun. But, despite the fact that two weeks from now you're probably gonna be just as busy as you are today because it's in the future, we tend to think we're gonna have more time, money, and energy than we actually will.
And so this really doesn't work well for, taking out a loan. We tend to think, oh even though I've never had money left over at the end of the month, even six months from now, I feel like I will. And so you'll take on extra obligations
Naseema: I think that, yeah, that speaks to. Like all of these, the affirms, the buy now pay later. Like all of these things that now are popping up as opposed to just straight up loans in ways that, it reduces that friction again
John Dinsmore: right.
Naseema: But it sets people up in this money trap where they're taking on all this debt. It's, again, it's another one of those things like a credit card, like it doesn't feel real in that moment. And so you [00:23:00] consume more than you actually need. Yeah.
John Dinsmore: And you see this in other places. So one thing, if I have a vice, it's, I like to go to concerts and what I, something I've seen where they exploit this tendency is tickets go on sale. Further and further ahead of actual concerts. It's August now, probably another couple of months.
We'll, I'll start getting, Ticketmaster emails for summer concerts. And the reason why they're doing this is because when you look that far off in the future, you're like, oh yeah, I'm not gonna be busy. Yeah. I'll get the tickets now. And because again, we have a tendency to, to fool ourselves into thinking we'll have more resources in the future than we have today.
Naseema: I was like, I thought you were gonna say they do that because they'll give you time to put it on a payment plan so that it
seems more affordable.
John Dinsmore: that too. Yeah, for sure.
Naseema: Yeah. But I, I know these concerts like are insane, but they do build in ways for you to, to be able to afford it.
John Dinsmore: [00:24:00] Absolutely. Yeah. And some other things too, right? Where they won't tell you, gosh, some concerts are getting so expensive now, but if it's $200 ticket, which unfortunately is not, that unusual, right? That's probably not even. I think my kids were looking at like Kendrick or someone like that, and it was like, yeah, the nosebleeds were still like, wow.
Um, And so they won't even put it to you as 200 bucks, right? They'll be like, oh. It's however many monthly payments of, $30 or whatever it is, and so it feels less expensive. Even though even if you do the math in your head, it still feels well for 30 bucks I'm in, at least this time around.
Naseema: So I know we're talking about all of these things, all of these ways that we're trapped into spending money. What can we consciously do and start implementing daily? Because it's, like I said, it's a habit that you have to break just like the marketing is targeted towards you every day.
Like, how do we, in knowing these things and what our triggers are, like how do we start to work to combat them?[00:25:00]
John Dinsmore: I think one of the better, besides shopping around maybe one of the best things you can do is set up automatic savings plans that. It doesn't let the money hit your account. It goes right into whether it's college savings or whatever. Because once the money lands in your hot little hands, you're gonna wanna spend it. And this isn't just research has shown, they call it the endowment effect that like, once the money is in your possession it is much harder for you to let it go. Reason why social security, it's not a windfall unfortunately, but it's helped a, keep a lot of seniors from being destitute is because that money was taken out before anyone could touch it.
So I think, and had people have to turn around and write a check to Social Security every month, you'd have a lot of people getting in trouble, right? Because they wouldn't be making their payments and it would lead to lots of angst. But over time, I think a lot of people say, you know what, I'm. At a certain point, you start to accept the [00:26:00] reality that, okay, I'm gonna be old at some point and I'm prob I'm not gonna be able to work all the time.
So it's good that I do this. But like I said to, so I, and also have it automatically escalate. So if you get a raise, say, okay let's say you're putting whatever percentage of your paycheck into whatever savings account. Keep it as a, yeah, make sure that that percent keeps going, even if your pay goes up over time.
Naseema: It sounds a lot like the Antib Budgett, right? You put these things in place first, like you, you automate these things and then, then you don't have to budget because whatever is left over, you just get to spend because you've already met your other goals, right? Yeah.
John Dinsmore: And I think it's so as someone who's like a DHD, I've developed all these systems to just for daily living where I've got I've got all my lists and things like that just 'cause so yeah, I think maybe I, you are future proofing yourself by putting all these things into place and don't give yourself an opportunity to give into, your most favorite vices financially.
Naseema: Yeah, I think, [00:27:00] that's super important because I think people like underestimate, like how much we. Are tempted to spend and if we don't have those systems in place, then all of our money is gonna be gone and we'll have nothing to show for it. Yeah. I like to tell people that and it's, actually not as hard as most people think or, I don't know.
A lot of people think. Oh, if I contribute more to my retirement or the thought of maxing out a retirement account, I'm gonna be destitute. How am I gonna live? How am I gonna, and then so I actually love like breaking down those numbers and actually putting it in a calculator and be like, actually it doesn't reduce your take home pay by that much because this is how it offsets your taxes.
And you know what I'm saying?
John Dinsmore: Well, and depending on what your employer match is too, right? Like you're, you're turning down free money if you're
not going up to the levels to get the, the [00:28:00] free match.
Naseema: Exactly. And we don't turn around away. Free money here. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I love the fact that you automated. And you automate those increases. There's a way to do that like with your retirement plan, like every, have it go up one to 2% every year so that as you're getting your raises or cost of living increases you're also continue to contribute at the same level.
And I think, yeah, I love the, the effective. Doing that in the background and I know I've done it and I do it so much now, I don't even think about it. But like when I tell people, they're like, you are crazy. 'cause I've gotten to the point where I think I put $1,800 a paycheck 'cause I have a 4 0 3 B and a 4 57 yeah, 1800.
Like 18 something a paycheck. And they're just like, I, how could you? And I just just do it. Just do it. And a lot of [00:29:00] people are just like, I just can't see myself. But you know what I encourage people to do is just try it. Just start and guess what your lifestyle will shift around that
John Dinsmore: There's something about it not being in your account and when you see it, especially for me, I, I'm the cook in my house. I don't know if you're the cook in your house, but my God, how tempting is it to order out like every single day? Because it's you know what? The kids will eat it.
They're not gonna complain about whatever it is, so there's always temptations for that. But, and I would probably order out more, but I have finally adopted the mindset of, everything comes out the first of the month and we just live off of whatever is left.
Because I would, the exercise of trying to anticipate what my monthly expenses were gonna be, or how much money we'd have left. There's just too many things, right? For anybody really.
Um, so I think it's for us, and because this is also part of what I, learn about for my [00:30:00] job, it was more like, okay, here are these savings priorities.
We're gonna go ahead and set these up and we'll figure it out from there. Because yeah, there's always, whether it's ordering out or, you know what, we haven't. Going on a trip, let's go on a trip. Because we all deserve something, right?
Naseema: deserve that.
John Dinsmore: we all work hard, but unfortunately, like that mindset Yeah.
Can all of a sudden you, you're looking around and your credit card debts through the roof and all that stuff.
Naseema: Yeah, I was just thinking about my kids are pretty spoiled 'cause I'll pick them up. Actually my daughter was this morning was just like, yeah, we're going to take a trip this weekend. It's Labor Day.
John Dinsmore: Right.
Naseema: Like you don't, I guess we are. I don't know.
John Dinsmore: Yeah. I don't know yet. It's tough to call. I was always lucky, I, so I'd grown up in a house where, my dad had lost his father like very young. And so he had all, he'd said he had promised himself that he wasn't gonna put the pressure [00:31:00] on his kids that were put on him, as a result.
And so I probably grew up extra clueless, so I don't begrudge my kids being. Like my older son is, he's obsessed with music and he started playing bass. And so I was like, we'll get you, alright, we'll get you like a starter bass or whatever. I was like, but your birthday is not for a few months, and this is a big, so this is probably gonna be, I don't want want you to be disappointed on, I your birthday.
And he is don't worry dad, I'm gonna want more stuff by the time my birthday rolls around. I was like, that is not what I was saying. But it's that perspective. I'm, I had the same perspective at that age
Naseema: but I love that and it is just I know I grew up like not having a lot, and under understanding scarcity really, really well and working so hard, so my kids don't have to live like that. But at the same time I'll be like, these kids just don't know how good they got it. And then it's just it's oh my God, it's really my fault because they've never.
I had to struggle. They [00:32:00] don't understand that. They don't understand
John Dinsmore: Right, but which is the better choice, right? Do you want them to stress about money or do you want them to be kids and a little more carefree? The line's somewhere in the middle. I just couldn't tell you exactly where.
Naseema: I know. I know. But I know like the overall thing the overarching thing about that is that oftentimes the way that we plan around our finances is that we say that we are going to get to it when we're going to start paying down debt. Once we have extra money, we're going to start investing once we have extra money, and that never comes.
And so if you don't psychologically put those things in place where you're paying yourself first. It, doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. So tell us about your book, where we can find it and what you really want people to take away from it.
John Dinsmore: Okay. So the book is called The Marketing of Debt, how They Get You,
Naseema: I [00:33:00] love that title by the.
John Dinsmore: thanks. It goes into, why is financial decision making hard? And then how do marketers make it even harder? So it goes into the psychology of, okay, you may find this difficult, here's why you find it difficult, and here's why.
Certain, appeals by marketers make. Even more difficult for you, right? No payments for six months or all of these different things. So it's not an academic book in the sense that hopefully you enjoy reading it, but it's also not pure, like pop psychology. It is based on research and I tell you where the research is and what it showed. Hopefully it helps people make better decisions and have fun reading it. Oh, and where is it available? It is available any online purveyor books Amazon, target, and so on.
Naseema: Awesome. So I'll definitely link that in the show notes. I'm definitely interested in reading it, but I think the overarching message that we make financial mistakes. We should [00:34:00] understand where they come from and why it's so hard to avoid a lot of these money traps.
And I am looking forward to having that as a resource for us to use so that we can avoid them in the future, or at least be able to forgive ourselves and move on and have tools to start. Putting those things in place for us to build a solid financial footing. So I appreciate you, John, for being on the podcast.
Thank you for your patience with my baby, who is always a very interesting guest.
John Dinsmore: She's way be way better behaved than my kids were at that age. It was not a problem.
Naseema: Thank you. Thank you so much.
John Dinsmore: Thanks for having me, Naima.
Naseema: Of course.
Hey there I’m Naseema
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