Why Bankruptcy Might Be the Smartest Choice You Can Make - Episode 140
In today's episode, I sit down with Barry Levine, a bankruptcy lawyer with more than 40 years of experience, to talk about what really happens when people file for bankruptcy. We break down the fear and confusion around money problems and explain how bankruptcy can be a tool to get a fresh start. I also share my own story of going through bankruptcy in my 20s and what I learned from it. Barry gives simple, honest advice on what to expect, how the process works, and why it’s not the end of the world.
About our guest:
Barry Levine is a Massachusetts-based bankruptcy attorney with more than 30 years of experience helping individuals and small business owners through financial crisis. Known for his calm, practical approach, he guides clients who feel scared, overwhelmed, and out of options to understand the system, explore their choices, and find a clear path forward.
Barry believes fear, not just debt, is what keeps people stuck. His role is to bring order to the chaos by applying decades of legal expertise to restore stability and control. With a career that began in a hands-on Boston office during law school, he has built a practice that is detail-oriented, outcome-focused, and always grounded in compassion.
The Law Office of Barry R. Levine
—-
Please join me here, and follow me on social media, Instagram, and Facebook.
Need help getting started on your path to financial freedom? Start Here
Join the Financially Intentional Community
Oh and please subscribe and leave a review on whatever app you're using to stream this podcast.
Get my book Smart Money
Subscribe & Review
Love this episode? Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema: [00:00:00] The calls often come late. Someone has ignored their letters from the IRS, missed too many loan payments or watched their small business slowly bleed out. They don't open with legal questions. They ask if there's a way out for over 30 years.
Barry Levine has answered that question with calm, practical advice. A Massachusetts based bankruptcy attorney. He works with individuals and small business owners navigating serious financial strain, people who are scared out of options and unsure what the next steps even look like. His work isn't about judgment or quick fixes.
It's about helping people understand what tools are available, how the system works, and what choices they can still make. What Barry sees again and again is that. Fear, not just debt, is what traps people. The legal process has structure, options and predictable outcomes. What RA's most clients is the panic that keeps them frozen in place.
[00:01:00] Barry's role is to bring order to the chaos. With each case. He applies decades of legal experience to help clients understand what's happening, what's possible, and how to move forward with strategy that restores both stability and control.
What's up? My financially intentional people? I'm joined with Barry Levine. Today we're gonna talk about a very important topic, something that's near and dear to me, which is bankruptcy. And I personally have gone through a bankruptcy and as of late, I have been asked the question at least once a week, should I file for bankruptcy?
What would that look like for me? And so I thought it was important to bring in an expert. Someone went. 45 years plus of experience in the bankruptcy realm to walk us through what that looks like and also to just give us guidance to see possibly is this something that you need to do to just [00:02:00] decrease the stigmas around it.
So thank you so much, Barry for joining us. You're a wealth of knowledge already. So excited for this conversation. So personally, my story was when I was 25, I had five houses. 'cause I did all of the things that people told me I was supposed to do as a young person.
Uh.
Barry Levine: No money down.
Naseema: That part, all of that. And it was the subprime lending boom, right?
We had all of these products out there that was encouraging us to take on all of this debt because that's how you invest, that's the American dream. You build wealth through real estate. And that's the only thing that I knew. It was the only way my grandfather and my, uncles, they invested, they bought real estate.
'cause that was the only thing that they had access to. So. All I knew. And I got to a point where I was up to my neck in these mortgages. The houses weren't being rented. And so I got to a place where I was forced to do two short sales and two [00:03:00] foreclosures in the process of that even though we had gotten to a legal agreement.
One of the banks kept on reporting my mortgage as late one of the banks that I sure sold on kept on reporting my mortgage as late every month late. Now, if you've ever had a late payment on a mortgage, you know that that takes your credit down a hundred points. Every time. So imagine, you only have 800 points max on your credit score how many times a month a company can do that.
And the only recourse I had at that time they told me was, you have to file bankruptcy to get these people removed. Because I, tried every intervention and that's why I ultimately had to file bankruptcy because even though these things were resolved, the debt was resolved, all those things, they kept on hitting my credit and it was, I think it was just like I.
A glitch in the system, but like the only way, honestly, the only way to get them removed off my credit [00:04:00] was to file bankruptcy. And so , that's my personal story and I did it in my twenties and now I can fully say through all of the things that I've been through financially it wasn't.
As detrimental to me as I thought it would be. And but I know that that was over 15 years ago now, and I don't know if the landscape has changed. Bringing you on? Yeah.
Barry Levine: I, I, what motivates a lot of people to file bankruptcy is the anxiety of owing money.
Naseema: Yeah.
Barry Levine: And the reality is it's only money. not your health, it's not your job. And, 99% of the creditors, American Express, bank of America, all these other banks.
They'll afford the loss and then adding insult to injury from a debtor's point of view. They'll then five years after the debtor has received their discharge, will sell the loan to somebody else who'll now be dunning them for money, not realizing they filed bankruptcy.[00:05:00]
Naseema: Ooh.
Barry Levine: Oh yeah. And usually those letters come on a Saturday and usually I'm asleep on a Saturday.
You can't get me. The fact is it's not the end of the world. There's just so much accreditor can do. Do you know anything about the collection process?
Naseema: I do loosely,
Barry Levine: So, every step of the way they have to send you a notice. And every time you get a notice, the notice says if you dispute this, the amount due, send us a it in writing. And listen doesn't cost you. You have a computer, you have a printer, you send them a form letter. So now they send you every invoice.
That you've ever incurred on that charge, and yet you still don't pay it because you don't have any money.
Send it to a collection agency.
Naseema: Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: What does the collection agency do? Send you the same notice. You just change the address on the demand verification, and you send that same response. [00:06:00] They now have to ask the original creditor for the information and send you all the direct that they have for the account.
You don't pay that either. See, people don't realize the process can be endless. You don't pay that either. And now they send it to an attorney and oftentimes, you live in California, the attorney is in Illinois. So what?
And maybe they file suit in Illinois. But first that attorney has to send you that same letter, giving you the opportunity to dispute the debt.
And now they file suit. Filing suit, it's more of a nuisance than anything else, especially if you owe the money, but you don't have any defense to it when you're a debtor. And it puts people in panic, but ultimately, even when they get a judgment, it doesn't get them paid. Too many people, the reality of bankruptcy is, is one thing when too many people hear what their friend heard and they researched it and they look [00:07:00] this up and they look that up and it's all bullshit.
the creditors, basically we sit here now for the 3 41 meetings, excuse me, the debtors, and they'll be sitting behind me. Cutting out my Quaalude Joe, which is one of my very nice it's original and you even know what I'm talking about.
Naseema: Yes,
Barry Levine: nice, very nice.
A young lady like yourself. And they sit behind me and everybody's on the screen. No credit to show up. Basically we sort of schmooze. They ask you questions, they ask you if you own real estate. They ask you what led to the bankruptcy filing, but you've been through it yourself. Maybe California's different, but in an asset list case, which 99% of them are, they get 65 bucks.
So how much money time is a trustee gonna spend? Too many debtors or potential debtors have the fear of the unknown. They don't know, I don't tell 'em about the ritual sacrifices and all this other [00:08:00] stuff, we like to keep that for the end of the day when they're done with the 3 41 meeting and we have the pig roast.
But the process itself, when people come to consult with me. What I tell 'em is, if you retain me today, four months from now, if we filed your case today, four months from now, you'll get your discharge.
And they really don't miss a beat. If you have house and you wanna keep the house in Massachusetts, we happen to have a very good, a Homestead Act, which protects up to a million dollars worth of equity in a primary residence.
So when most people, if they're have any they record a homestead, costs 35 bucks here, and when they file a bankruptcy with respect to the house, because they're all worried, what's gonna happen to the house?
You show the trustee the appraised value of the house. You show the trustee the mortgage statements of the house, and you show the trustee the [00:09:00] homestead, which covers up to a million dollars worth of equity. And at that point, when you go through the bankruptcy, the trustee doesn't even bat an eyelash.
The same thing with the cause. The only time. In a bankruptcy that you can have problem if you have non-exempt assets.
Non-exempt assets is something that you either have to do what they call pre-bankruptcy planning and deal with them before you're gonna file or. You're gonna pay the piper.
And of course, it's not, again, it's none of this is the end of the world. 'cause we're only dealing with money
generally in a case. And I've had this happen a number of times where there is equity that you can't protect. Like I had a case a number of years ago where, the debtors were in the process of getting a divorce, and I suggest they had a house on the Cape and they lived outside of Boston, and I suggested that since you're getting a divorce, [00:10:00] you can't have more than one homestead in Massachusetts.
Why doesn't one of you take up residence at the Cape House? File a homestead and we can protect them both
in the bank. Who listens to me.
Naseema: didn't do it.
Barry Levine: uh, my client had nice father who had some money and the trustee turned around and decided there was x number of dollars worth of equity in the place on the Cape, and he bought his interest back,
you know, because the, at least around he, the best thing, I'm. Like I said, I'm what they call a fair arbiter. I was always that person. If I did, if I worked, I would be an a plus student. But I never liked to work. And, in the law business, no. If you can make money without lifting a finger, that's the path of least resistance.
If the debtor is gonna buy the property back, why go through an auction? Why go through the vagaries of the public [00:11:00] mode?
Naseema: Right. It's a process.
I understand. So from a perspective, when we talked about what we talked about pre recording was right now a lot of people are in a position where there they're in survival mode. And they're in a place where their debts fully outstrip what they earn. And like I said, a lot of people are coming to me on a weekly basis is bankruptcy even an option?
What do you tell people? What the parameters are for if and when they can file
Barry Levine: It really comes down to income. there are two types of bank there's three types of bankruptcies an individual can file. I won't talk about the chapter elevens because they're very annoying. But chapter Sevens and Chapter Thirteens, and they're all guided by IRS statistics and I can take out my little chart.
So for instance, if you're a household [00:12:00] of one, everything consists of the household. How many people live in the household. So if you're a household of one and you make more than. $83,000 in change. You have to go through the complete means test and you are more likely a Chapter 13 candidate, which is called a wage earn plan.
So what happens in that, if you are above the median, you wind up paying what some computer program determines is your. Surplus income, to your credit, is over five years. It's like my father used to say if he had wheels, he'd be a baby carriage. Sometimes it has nothing to do with reality, but most people, especially if you get into multiples in households, that number goes up quite a bit. And generally we know going in, whether you're a Chapter seven or a chapter 13. A lot of chapter [00:13:00] thirteens are filed because people, who have mortgage arrears as long as they start making their current mortgage payments in the chapter 13, can pay their mortgage arrears out over five years.
But, chapter seven like I said, you file the case a month later, you have your 3 41 meeting. The trustee doesn't really ask you a lot of heavy questions, it takes place like this by Zoom, they verify the information that you've given them and when you're done, it's been decades since a creditor has shown up.
The only time that happens if you happen to have a very pissed off creditor, but that's credit card companies. They care
And then you take, there's a second course before you could file. You have to take a first course, and then there's a second course you have to take and you'll get your discharge.
The trustee generally reports the case as an asset list case within 24 48 hours of the 3 41 meeting [00:14:00] and life goes on. The
Naseema: But wait, can you, step back a little bit and just explain the difference between a chapter seven and a chapter 11, or, and if you wanna, chapter 13, if you want to talk about a chapter 11.
I think, is really a, a chapter seven is a straight liquidation. Basically you file the chapter seven, the schedules, the statement of affairs. You list all your assets you apply what exemptions, and 99% of the time, everything you have is exempt. And then four months later you have the 3 41 meeting in about a month, you take that second course and you get your discharge.
Barry Levine: A chapter 13 , can either be. Income-based if you are above the median, which sort of forces you, , I tell you it breaks my, how I've had some people who make so much money, they've paid 80, 90 cents on the dollar to their creditors.
Makes me nauseous. [00:15:00] And, or like I said, you can file a chapter 13 to be able to pay your mortgage arrears.
Out over five years. I just had an interesting case where she wanted to do that, but she had more mortgages than a Chapter 13 allowed. And we're in a chapter 11,
Naseema: Uhhuh.
Barry Levine: which the bureaucracy itself is, is maybe people don't know when you file a bankruptcy, there's the bankruptcy court, which you hope never to have to see.
There's the chapter seven trustee who's been appointed to administer your case, and then there's the Office of the United States trustee. They're from the government and they're here to help.
They oversee the administration of things. They look to see whether for instance, I filed a case for a woman who had been a very high earner.
Her husband's a high earner, [00:16:00] and then suddenly she was not so high earner. She was doing contract work. You know when you're making $250,000, you can keep all the balls in the air when you're making $58,000 and you hope to have the job after six weeks, it's tough.
And to add insult to injury, they have two children who are developmentally disabled
Naseema: Oh yeah.
Barry Levine: and she was spending a lot of money.
And I knew because that's what the trustee's office looks at to see abuse and things like that. She had a lot of debt and I knew they were gonna make an inquiry, so I figured I'd be smart. I filed the chapter 13 to hopefully avoid that.
When it turned out her chapter 13 couldn't be feasible and we converted the case to a chapter seven.
That's when they did their inquiry, and it turned out they allowed her to [00:17:00] get a discharge because under the federal law, all the money, don't ask where she had to schlep these kids from where she lived in Massachusetts up into New Hampshire and, and they allowed her to get a discharge. Otherwise most cases don't have all that drama.
Naseema: Yeah, most cases are pretty straightforward.
And I know you, yeah, you were
your
Barry Levine: but
that's another but that's another story for another day.
Naseema: let's not
Barry Levine: you can have me, you can have me back on the
1800 Bitcoins, and he's a chapter seven.
Naseema: oh my God. Is that real? Oh my God. No, we can't, we don't have the capacity for that today. No, but I know we were talking prerecording and you were saying that in all of your years, 40 plus years of being a bankruptcy attorney, you've seen more cases now than ever. What do you think is contributing to that?
Barry Levine: I happen to think of, for lack of a better word, the economy [00:18:00] sucks. I, I, I,
Naseema: There it is.
Barry Levine: it's, people aren't making money. social security just covers so much and, and to me, one of the unfortunate things, listen, young, again, I sound like my father, young people who file a bankruptcy.
Nowadays when someone files a bankruptcy, creditors look at you because maybe you were making 40, 50 grand, maybe even more as not a bad credit risk because you can't file a bankruptcy again for eight years. So they'll give you a credit card. See what I'm saying?
Naseema: Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: But it's not something that you have, it's a fact of life.
The credit card companies drive these people crazy. To me, that's a very good source of business because people don't know that there's, aside from nudging you, there's not much they can do to you. And once they retain us, then the creditors all have to call me. And the one thing I learned many decades ago is [00:19:00] I don't bullshit the creditors that the client's gonna send a check that they're gonna do this.
I basically tell 'em they have no money. Go sue them. Have a nice day. All it's
gonna do is all it's gonna do is make some lawyer money. So then, I don't know that if they must have it in California. So now I get a judgment against somebody,
right? And in the perfect world, the sheriff shows up at your house with the judgment that you say, wait a minute, oh, let me get my checkbook, and I write out a check.
$75,000 and no problem. And I know there's no perfect world. So the sheriff goes back with his execution and judgment unsatisfied. What happens next in Massachusetts is they can summons you into
debtor's court. It's called supplementary process.
So if you're on social security and you have this $75,000 judgment against you, what is a judge gonna order you to pay it?
Barely have [00:20:00] enough money to put food on the table and pay your rent. And maybe you're living in a. Assisted housing in some town. It's the peace of mind. The one thing that we, the clients, there's some satisfaction we get. I'm doing God's work actually.
You'll see me on the mount every Tuesday and Thursday. That's when they open the arc. That's when I'm usually there. But the thing is they. The things they make people feel about owing money. It's terrible and none of it is real.
Naseema: I think that's the part of, society, that's how society is set up, right? It's capitalism, right? You have to make people feel this social obligation. It is a social credit system, okay? That's if you owe this money and you don't pay it back, you're a bad person morally.
Meanwhile, these corporations. El Musk is getting all these write offs. They do all of these things. They know the game. So it's [00:21:00] really about what you know. And so that's why this whole platform exists because I feel like there's this gate keeping that happens for the people that know, like the people that know that they can just, retain you and be like, I'm paying you 50 cents.
are chronic. Right,
right.
Barry Levine: Well, I used to have a letter when I was a, a young lawyer because listen, nobody, even though I'm very entertaining, I have a nice shtick. Nobody wants to file a bankruptcy.
And I used to have a letter that would, I would send out the creditors saying where my client would like to pay you 10 cents on the dollar, which is 10 cents more than you're gonna get.
If they file a bankruptcy credit card, companies would come back with, no, we'll take 60%. And you and I say, you
don't seem to understand.
Naseema: And just be like, okay, so just take us to
court.
Barry Levine: You know the, you'll have credit card companies when somebody will actually wanna work something out. A debtor will try to work something out and lower their [00:22:00] payments because they can't afford the greater payments, and the credit card company will tell them your income shows that you can't make the lower payment, but I've been making the greater payment.
You would think logically, the lower payment would be the easy one to make. One of the reasons I keep Kafka on my desk,
Naseema: that's so understandable. The thing is, is that there's so many people out there that just don't know what their options are.
Also. Also, yes. And that's the whole thing, is that that's scary to most people. Getting to the point where. Someone like me, I have a role of attorneys and I'm just like, call my attorney.
You know what I'm saying? But I had to get there. I had to get to that level. Most people aren't there because again, they have this like social currency that says if I do that. Then I can't do X, Y, and Z because that's what society is telling me. Now I know that , there's merit to, paying off your debt if [00:23:00] you can and doing the things that you can if you're able to.
But , if you're in a financial situation where you're overburdened by these debts, you do have some recourse.
So like where do you draw that line for people?
Barry Levine: The thing is, is it's when basically you are making the minimum payments to the credit card companies. You're missing the minimum payments to the credit card companies. And to me, most essential is paying your necessarily expenses. Rent, mortgage, food, the car, the credit card companies and your loans and all that.
And I include, even. People you know that you've lent money to, you have to live. That's more important,
you know, and they, if they've lent money, it's, the cynic in me says if you lent money, yeah, you can expect the money back, but you can also expect to lose it.
Naseema: Yeah, that's why my rule of thumb is I don't give money that I don't consider a gift
Barry Levine: shouldn't be a surprise. And, You [00:24:00] can't what we are encountering now is a lot of people, you happen to hit the nail on the, it's a fairly simple process. I really shouldn't give trade secrets away, but it isn't the end of the world and we've encountered a lot of people.
They overthink things.
Naseema: Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: If we ask for bank statements, it's a simple question. It's not that difficult. If we need w twos, it shouldn't come with an explanation,
but too many people, it's assets and liabilities. , It's like my classic story of the person who once ca came to me and said, do I have to tell you about the property I own in Maine?
It's schmuck, now you do.
Naseema: Yeah. If I didn't know. I didn't know.
Barry Levine: on the other, exactly. on the other, hand, I only know what I know.
Naseema: Yeah. Yeah. So my thing is that I want people to be responsible, right? For example, I have a [00:25:00] friend who's a child's mom owes, just $120,000 in credit card debt. but. I feel like if she goes through like the bankruptcy process, she's just gonna continue to do the same thing over and over and over again.
Barry Levine: So they file bankruptcy again. I've done it in my practice now four times over, over 45 years. The thing is the, what I find unfortunate is
that, you know, when I. First started out, you had the people who you know, knew they can go and use their credit card and charge it up, or they took cruises and they went here and there.
Most people, even people with $120,000 worth of debt, it's usually for some sort of necessities one way or the other. No really.
Naseema: just has a shopping addiction, honestly.
Barry Levine: When you get down, it's only things what, she'll, she'll find out when she files a bankruptcy, [00:26:00] what we consider the value of fine clothes. It works better when you fill out the Salvation Army form than reality.
Naseema: Exactly. Exactly. For me as a person who wants people to be financially responsible or is teaching people like, you have to change these kind of mindset things in order to be, a person that builds real wealth instead of continuing to be on the cycle, there still needs to be like a level of responsibility around like how you interact.
What I want people to understand is. There is recourse. If you're struggling, you don't have to continue struggling and you can use bankruptcy as a tool to get where you
Barry Levine: At, listen, I've, had people who have 'cause very often, which is also a story for another day. There's a small business involved that goes outta
business. A person goes bankrupt. Lots of people like you, entrepreneurial people. So these are [00:27:00] very often the people who filed four times over my 45 years. One business failure after another, but you can always start again. It gives you that option. The bankruptcy you have to look at it really is a, is a business planning tool because, one, if, if you have. Debt's like a, a mortgage on a house that you're gonna keep or you have car loans that you're gonna keep, that stands in your credit going forward, because now especially only if you reaffirm the debt because once again, why I keep Kafka, my desk I had a client made couldn't reaffirm the debt.
Do you know what reaffirming the debt means? It means that it survives your bankruptcy.
Naseema: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: Otherwise it would be discharged.
He, when he filed it was in the s computer company failure. He had no income. He had a house that was seriously underwater. Somehow he ma he couldn't reaffirm the [00:28:00] debt 'cause the court wouldn't approve it.
Somehow he managed to. Make 10 years worth of payments and he wanted, the mortgage rates came down
and he wanted to refinance. He went to his bank, the bank that he'd made making 10 years worth of payment. He can't make this up. 10 years worth of payments to, they pulled his credit report and they said we can't do that.
You discharged this debt in your bankruptcy, but he'd been making 10 years worth of payments. He never reaffirmed the debt.
Naseema: Oh, because they wouldn't allow him to, right?
Barry Levine: He couldn because the court wouldn't, and from a credit point of view, it showed as if it was long gone and he had never made a payment.
it really is, you, you can look at it. I've had a number of people, they go through bankruptcy, they start something else, and now they start making money.
Or they start, living more within their means.
And then on the other hand, they're the folks. It doesn't mean it shouldn't at all.[00:29:00]
Naseema: It doesn't matter. They're just gonna, yeah. So you got, both ends of the spectrum. I just, Want people to like, okay, so people do go through the bankruptcy process and they do wanna start building, they do wanna keep their home and they do wanna start investing and building it. Like what is that process like?
Okay. So like with me, like I said, I went through two foreclosures, two short sales, filed the bankruptcy, and then three years after I was all good to buy a whole
another house. What does that process
Barry Levine: It. It usually, from the feedback I get from my debtors, it can usually happen with six months to a year. They usually get new credit card solicitations fairly frequently.
They buy houses within a year. It was a lot easier before the banks decided to do their last freak out on over a decade ago, I don't remember.
But The only thing they'll find is you may not get the, a interest rate. You
may get B [00:30:00] interest rate or a c interest rate, but you'll get a loan. And the thing is, once they can get back in the market and show that they can make the payments on a regular basis, now after a year or two they can finance refinance for a lower interest rate.
But it, it certainly isn't the end. I look at it like, I think I said when we started, it's a business decision.
Naseema: Yeah.
Barry Levine: Are you gonna be an indentured servant? You, you make a thousand dollars a month and 1200 is going to your creditors, and you're cleaning windshields out on the mass pike or something like that.
Or are you gonna live like a mens and pay for rent and pay for food and let the credit cards whistle? I can't see, you should think that you should keep a bankruptcy attorney on speed dial, there are, Hey, here I am. There are a lot of. There is, I don't answer the phone.
I hate talking on the phone. Know that now in a profession, really in a profession where you have to talk on the phone,
Naseema: You're so funny. Oh, Barry, I could talk to you all day. I can't [00:31:00] imagine.
Barry Levine: You should call a banker. Don't be afraid. We don't bite. And, in the final analysis, it's really, it's only money.
Naseema: So Barry, somebody is they've made the business decision. They say, okay I don't wanna do this. I'm gonna file bankruptcy. How do they go about finding a bankruptcy attorney? Is it state-based? Like, how does it work?
Barry Levine: It's pretty much, I, when I was a young lawyer, I worked for a guy who used to write books and he, we had clients all over the country and. He was known as the business doctor. He was a moron, very annoying person to work for. Uh, he ultimately dropped dead, but I won't go there. But he taught me a lot of all this stuff.
We're pretty much state based, I
work for the most part in Massachusetts. . There was a time when I used to cross the border into New Hampshire. I don't even do that. Nowadays I can handle cases throughout Massachusetts because of technology, it's easy to find a bankruptcy [00:32:00] attorney someplace.
When I represent a creditor, it's a treat and which is very rare for me. I do mostly. Debtors work. And
that's the kind of, and the other thing you have to look out for, when. When you retain my office, you get me, you get my assistant.
This, just the two of us. There are a number of bankruptcy firms. I've dealt with uh, not so much that, that they've never met the name attorney in the firm, which, even now, I will do a lot of intake by phone. Be lying what I just said or but even then, when you know they're in some place, away from my office, the only thing I insist upon is that they meet me in person to sign their petition 'cause I'm old fashioned and that they come here for the 3 41 meeting because I'd always rather have my debtor sitting behind me than sitting in their car on the Zoom [00:33:00] meeting.
Naseema: But can you represent people in different states?
Barry Levine: I could always, anything is possible, some some states
Naseema: do,
yeah.
Barry Levine: with somebody local, but to me, I, I feel that there must be somebody like me who knows their way around bankruptcy in California, in New York, every state. Has different exemptions.
The Massachusetts homestead at a million dollars, I think is probably one of the most liberal in the country short of the one that exists in Florida, which I, I still think is the best. You just move
Naseema: find somebody local, find somebody that knows the law, find somebody that is actually gonna get to know you and your debt and your situation. Like those are the things that you wanna look for. What do you say when people are like should I do bankruptcy versus like a credit card, a debt consolidation.
Barry Levine: Oh, you should see all my podcasts on debt settlement. A waste of time.[00:34:00]
Naseema: Yeah.
Barry Levine: You know? if you are blind in your right eye and you're missing the middle finger on your left hand, we have a special debt settlement program for you. It's all bullshit. You know what they don't tell you with the debt settlement program is that you wind up, the only thing they generally do is wind up getting themselves paid a fee. If they settle a case, and again, it depends on the kind of debt you have. If you have 50, $60,000 worth of debt and they settle $10,000 worth of debt, what good have they really done for you? You
rest. The other thing is you get a, a forgiveness of debt, a 10 99
Naseema: Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: when they settle a case, which can result in a taxable, what the accountants call a taxable event. While a bankruptcy, it op, it discharges by operation of law. There's I wanna something. You know? That's good to know. I didn't know that.
You know, [00:35:00] and, to me, most cases are asset list cases. Why pay them anything? If you can just go through the process and not miss a beat.
Naseema: So what about, now we talked about this a little bit earlier too. We're off the information age, and do people need to have a bankruptcy lawyer or could they represent themselves using a tool like an AI tool to help them through the process?
Barry Levine: There are offhand, I don't know the names of them, I always say, you get what you pay for. I think it can be done as debtor's counsel. I, it's the one thing I hated the 3 41 meetings when there's a pro se debtor and they don't know what they're doing, and it just takes a lot of time.
You don't know your way around the system. I've been doing this for a long time. Like I said, one of the trustees I used to play basketball with when
Naseema: You just slide up in there. So the relationships, it's like, what's up Joe? you know,
we just about to
discharge this. Let's just go.
Barry Levine: It's the same way, the same sort of thing people have with [00:36:00] these people who have tax problems. They sign up for these tax settlement problems. They live in Massachusetts, they sign up for some place in Colorado. And you mean to tell me there's nobody in Massachusetts?
I do that sort of stuff. That why would you wanna retain somebody who's two times zones away?
Who may never return your call. Like I said, some of these bankruptcy, they never meet the name partner, they, they deal with an associate or a paralegal all the time,
Naseema: So when people retain you, is it like a flat fee? Is it a portion of how much they owe, usually what that they should
Barry Levine: Well, my, my fee nowadays my fee is running around $2,500 to file a bankruptcy.
Naseema: That's it. You pretty affordable, Barry.
Barry Levine: You can pay more. Hey, you know,
Naseema: but like , in the home realm of things, like if I was this girl and I owed $125,000 in credit card debt, and that's a minimum payment on one [00:37:00] of the credit cards, and I'd just be like, Barry, let me slide you $2,500.
Barry Levine: I wish I could charge the amount by the amount of debt? No, I mean it's $2,500. The filing fee I think is, is 3 38. We pull a credit report and we pull an appraisal. If you have real estate. Of course, in a perfect world they'll say, who do I make the check out to? But being an inveterate cynic, as you can tell, and from Brooklyn, , we start jerking around running interference with their creditors.
We take a $250 deposit
Naseema: Mm-hmm.
Barry Levine: and we just ask that they pay the balance out over six months. We don't charge interest of penalties and we run interference with their creditors, which is the one thing that's really nagging them.
Naseema: what I'm hearing is basically I. We have more hesitation than we need to when it comes to bankruptcy, and if it's something that you really feel like you're struggling financially, [00:38:00] it's one of the first things you should do is try to find a reliable bankruptcy attorney and talk to them about the possibility of filing bankruptcy, and the process is more straightforward and there should be no negative connotation around
bankruptcy.
It's
Barry Levine: you know, you either pay, you make it so you, you have to pay food, you're gonna pay the credit cards. They can suffer.
Naseema: Right, And, and so I've learned a lot. Like I said, it's been over 15 years since I filed my bankruptcy, but I remember that relief and I remember feeling like. I wish I would've known about this sooner. And like I said, , it wasn't, it was for me, it was just so that I can just even get to a starting place again after I had been going through that foreclosure and stuff.
So for me it was more of a no brainer, but for a lot of people it's just I know I took out this debt and I know I owe it. Is it wrong for me to file bankruptcy?
Barry Levine: To me, I don't make moral decisions. It's, you have to do what you have to do. [00:39:00] And, the one thing that the, my clients tell me where they, sometimes we sit three people here waiting for a 3 41 meeting
is when they're done. They'll say, that's it.
Naseema: Yep.
Barry Levine: The trustees, they, for the little money they get, they're not there, like I mentioned basketball, like the kid couldn't play, but it was his basketball. If you didn't let him play, he would take the
basketball home. That's not what they do.
I, I remember a number of years ago, seeing on the news here was like a, a. Bankruptcy abuse and this, that the guy owned a fancy condominium in downtown Boston. It was worth $5 million. It had an $8 million mortgage on it. He went bankrupt and got to keep the condo. There's no equity.
What, what are they gonna do? Sell it.
Naseema: You know what? I'm not mad at that at all. I'm not mad at that at all,
Barry Levine: There's a certain benefit to being
[00:40:00] judgment proof.
Lots of business people and everything's in the wife's name. Everything's in this name, but, and then they go bankrupt if they do it right,
Naseema: Yeah, I really feel like a lot of the things in the finance space is really about what you know, and it's certain rules that I feel like a lot of people aren't privy to. And so I love being able to have this platform about
Barry Levine: the thing is, is, along those lines, I never go into
district court. I never go into Superior Court. And there are attorneys who practice in these courts. They know the clerks, they know this one, they know that one. It makes a big difference. It's like if you want something, done in whatever town you live in, knowing the guy who does all the work before the town council is the guy to go to, not the Jewish guy from the big city.
Naseema: Yeah. But that's the whole thing is that I think being able to unlock one of [00:41:00] those things, those rules in that rule book that we didn't necessarily read or have access to, or I know I didn't growing up is like really important to me. And I really feel like you unlocked that for me and a lot of my listeners.
And so I really appreciate that because the more or the closer I can get to people being on a. Le say, like level playing field when it comes to their money, , the more successful I think people can be. And I really just think that like to remove that stigma around bankruptcy.
Yeah. There's no secrets.
I think that that is true, but also if you don't know, you don't know and what you don't have access to and exposure to, you just don't. And I really. Like being that conduit. And I just, I thank you for being willing to share and being explicit about it and just being like, listen, you can either do this or you can do this and solve all your problems.
And this is what I have done for these people who have [00:42:00] these multimillions and they don't think a blink an eye. You know what I'm saying? And so that, that's
Barry Levine: Well.
Naseema: me.
Barry Levine: And the thing is, a number of years ago, I ran into somebody who had a liquor store that went out of business, and he proudly told me his story, how he paid that. He wasn't personally liable on all these, it was just
corporate liability. He spent four years paying off all company's debt,
Naseema: And he was so proud of that.
Barry Levine: and I said, why did you bother? There was no need. It's not you know when you have a good credit score, it is not like they give you a gold
Naseema: You know what this is? This reminds me. Okay. I didn't, I'm, I told a nurse, but I'm a labor and delivery nurse, and it reminds me of the story I tell people like. You're having a baby is gonna hurt like hell. But we have this solution. It's called an epidural. You can get it. You can enjoy [00:43:00] your pregnancy, and guess what?
You're gonna get the same result. And whether you have the pain or whether you don't have the pain. You don't get a reward at the end for going through the pain and suffering. 'cause let me tell you, having a baby naturally might be a great experience if you really wanna go see, go high five Jesus and come back down.
You wanna go towards the light. That's what you wanna do, but you gotta understand. It's gonna hurt and you're not gonna get a reward at the end. And so that is the analogy that I kept on playing in my head when you were saying all these things. Yes, you can go through all that stuff, you're gonna do all that stuff.
You can play all this stuff back, you can get all of the accolade, like all the, and you can think that you're getting accolades, but in the meantime, all
you're doing is running around in circles when you could have just resolved this
problem.
Barry Levine: you, you're being a schmuck. That's all you're really doing. I represented a guy, he had some business, I don't know, so tchotchkes on [00:44:00] Amazon and all this other stuff, and he was a bankruptcy candidate and he was too concerned about his credit
Naseema: A lot of people are, that's what I'm saying, the social
Barry Levine: and, you know. see, and I, I happen to always say that you should try, which is easier said than done nowadays to develop a relationship with a small bank that could look at you as an individual, not necessarily a FICA score.
And, could sense you up as maybe you've had a hard time now and maybe not then, those banks are few and far between.
Naseema: I have one, I have my bank that's across the street from my house. I can go there and I can be like, Hey, this is the situation. This is what I need. And they do that. And it's 'cause I have a small credit union. It's across the street from my
Barry Levine: See,
Naseema: Yeah. Credit. That's why I love credit unions. You
could,
yeah.
Oh yeah. That sucks. That's a,
Barry Levine: You needed, you needed a call
Naseema: yeah, [00:45:00] that's how it's,
that that's how it's, that is exactly how it's, I go in there, I'm
Barry Levine: that's.
Naseema: rate is like
way too high. Yeah.
Barry Levine: post bankruptcy. If you can find something like that or develop something like that, that's
very important because nowadays, you know the bank, you know nobody in the bank, they don't know you, you call 'em up,
they have no idea. That's the thing.
That personal, even though you know it takes time, that personal stuff is what's missing in a large part. And they shouldn't, people having financial problems shouldn't be afraid to tell people it's not the end of the world.
You'd be surprised. You find out,
you find out how many people when you start talking about it.
It's like when people who talk about a disease, everybody suddenly has the
Naseema: That's exactly what happened to me last week. I was at a retreat and some one person asked me about bankruptcy, and I was like, yeah, I did it. It wasn't a big deal. This is what happened. This is how it is. And they were just like [00:46:00] can I do it? And I was like. Yeah, you can. And then everybody else at the table was like, wait, I'm, this is what's happening to me and this is what's happened to me.
And I just feel like we assign so much shame around money issues. And again, I just really feel like it is a certain thing that we always have to have these worker bees. We always have to have these people that, in this society, that feel like they have to be these cogs in the wheel, where a lot of people are just like, we don't even have to do that.
And why are we doing that?
Barry Levine: To be mellow
Naseema: Yeah, exactly. be like, Barry, what? What would do? That's what I'm, that
Barry Levine: I tell you, if, if people are interested, like I said, I've done a lot of podcasts
about bankruptcy.
It's on YouTube 'cause I wrote a book to bankruptcy through the Looking Glass, which is what I'm the
reality of it all. And that those are my podcasts. I got a lot
Naseema: Okay. that's very important, Barry. So share those resources. If they wanna find you [00:47:00] bankruptcy through the Looking Glass, your podcast, just search Barry Levine.
You have,
Barry Levine: I think I do, but I don't know about it. I,
Naseema: oh my God,
you're the best, Barry. I have, I have all of your resources.
Barry Levine: I enjoyed this
Naseema: I did too, but I'll, put all of that stuff in the show notes and this episode will probably come out in a couple of weeks. I'm gonna preview it to my little specific special community tonight because I really feel like this important, this timely.
Barry Levine: Hey, it's always nice to listen to a nice Jewish attorney with a face like this. , Only a can
can
Naseema: so funny. But anyway, Barry, thank you so much. I really
Barry Levine: stay.
Naseema: conversation.
Hey there I’m Naseema
My dream is for everyone to know that financial independence is attainable with a little intentionality. Learn how I can help you finally break the cycle of living paycheck to paycheck.
Join the Facebook Community
Join the Financially Intentional community and get access to resources to guide you on the path to Financial Freedom.
Watch these Videos To Learn How to…
Keep Listening
Here are some more episodes you may enjoy…
We share our own stories of chasing “perfect” success in work and money, getting sick and tired, and then slowly learning to listen to our bodies, heal old hurts, and make choices that fit who we really are.