This Nurse is Using the Law to Disrupt the Healthcare Industry- Ep. 92
Irnise is an experienced nurse and health law attorney that works with healthcare providers who want to protect their license, decrease liability and mitigate risks. After working in the operating room and the pre-op/PACU years ago, Irnise decided that she could do more for nurses, patients, and the healthcare system by working to change healthcare as a legal advocate and social justice change agent. As a graduate of Howard University and the Howard University School of Law, her practice is deeply rooted in social justice, and she serves as an architect of social change for both the clinicians and patients in the community. Irnise still works as a travel nurse and runs her practice while also trying to find the balance of supporting her own family.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Naseema McElroy: [00:00:00] All right, Nurses on Fire. You are in for a treat today because we have Irnise Williams, Your Nurse Lawyer joining us today. What is up Irnise? How are you?
Irnise Williams: [00:00:11] I'm good. I'm really excited to be here and have this conversation is going to be fun.
Naseema McElroy: [00:00:16] Definitely going to be fun because you guys I always have a lot of knowledge.
She has an incredible background in nursing and she is going to be Japanese some chance for you guys. So I can't wait to get into her story. So let's start, like we start every episode and talk about like your nursing origin story. How did you become a nurse?
Irnise Williams: [00:00:35] Yeah. So I decided I wanted to be a nurse at a young age. My grandparents were sickly. They helped raise me. And so I saw a lot of their care people coming in and out of the house care for them, then going back and forth to the doctor being in the hospital. And they always had good healthcare and good healthcare experiences. And so. It was important for me to be kind of continue that legacy of caring for people and giving people quality care that I think is just so critical and so important.
And so I decided to become a nurse. I decided I did want to become a nurse, but I didn't want to go to college because of the cost. And then I was like, well, I'm just going to go into the military. And my you're crazy. I was like, I'm going to go become a Marine. And then if I go to college, I'll figure it out then.
And she was like, no, if you're going to go anywhere, you're going to go to the air force. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna apply to one college and then we'll kind of figure it out from there. So I applied to Howard didn't think I was going to get in because my grades were okay.
Like my SAT scores were okay. I didn't really try. I just kinda was a doer, like, you know, y'all gonna get whatever y'all get. And I got in and I was like, Oh, but from the first day I knew I was going to do nursing. I knew that was my passion. I knew that that was my goal. And so that's kinda how I got into the field.
My goal was to work for Hopkins and my first job out of nursing school was there. And so I kind of hit my dream job at 22 . And I was like, okay, what's next? That was the biggest goal I had on that. And now we've hit it now. What's next. Right? What are we going to do? I love it. I love
Naseema McElroy: [00:02:13] it. And how was Howard's nursing program?
Just personally, I'm curious.
Irnise Williams: [00:02:17] I think because I started as a undergraduate student in the sense of starting my freshman year and didn't like transfer and it was okay. I actually missed one of my prerequisites because some prerequisites are only offered once a year. It was difficult to transfer the credit in.
And so I ended up doing an extra year at Howard, which was the best year ever, because I got to have so much fun, not taking. Healthcare-related classes then meeting new people and then partying because I have no work to do. And so their program to me is I think like most small or even HBCU programs, very difficult.
A lot of the instructors are older. So they come with a lot of knowledge, but they're very old school, you know, they're not necessarily. Up to whatever's going on. I mean, this was, I mean, probably ain't nothing changed because some of the statements is still there, but it's a good program, right?
Like I knew how to be a good nurse. I left knowing how to take care of patients. I got quality clinical experience. Like they did not play about getting us clinical experiences. And then one of my professors who we're still really close now, he was the one who took us to all of the best places that Howard had never even gotten into hospitals that were further out, but would just give us.
So much autonomy and being able to experience clinical. So we got a really, really, really good, I think clinical experience, which I think made us good, you know, new nurses.
Naseema McElroy: [00:03:33] Wow. That's incredible. That's actually pretty impressive and kind of like my biggest regret is that I didn't go to HBCU.
So thank you for letting me live vicariously through you, but I'm so you're at Hopkins. You, because you're a nurse like that, you reached your goals and now you're like, what's next? So what did your nursing trajectory look like? And then how did you decide to go to law school?
Irnise Williams: [00:03:57] Yeah. So I was starting my career in the OR. If you know anything about the OR, it's not very diverse, it's a very difficult to reign. Not only the surgeons, the staff, and so I'm Oh, wild child. And, you know, I had an opinion and I went to an HBCU and so I was very passionate about a lot of things and that didn't really work well in that environment.
They wouldn't allow me to grow. They wouldn't allow me to run charge. And I thought that it was just me. And then I actually, I spoke with Theo who was on the podcast a few weeks ago and he had the same experience. Right. And I was like, okay, it wasn't just me. It was very common for them to treat new black nurses that way.
And so for me, it was like the restraints of not being able to be my whole self, not being able to grow and learn and do different things, made me feel like I didn't belong there. And I was like, I don't have to stay here. I can go back to DC where I know I can find a job where people are going to love and adore me.
And that's when I found a job back in DC and I went to the pre-op PACU. I need, I knew I needed skills. I needed to do something that I could transfer. Those skills just in case I wanted to do a different. Type of nursing. And so I got that, the IB, the labs you know, essentially assessments just quick pre-op and post-op care.
So I got a lot of experience, but during that time, the affordable care act was coming out and I wanted to do policy work, and I assumed that I would go to law school get this law degree and go work for the federal government. Like I had a plan. That's what I was going to do. Are you knew who I wanted to work with?
Like I just like, I'm going to work for the department health and human services, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that, post recession, they never really recovered. They never had started hiring, they just never started hiring lots of people again. Right. I think the only department that was really hiring massively was.
Social security. And I was like, I, I'm not working there. I'm not driving to Virginia and I'm not working at social security. And so I just, wasn't interested in some of the opportunities that were there. And so I was like, well, I need to make money. I had a child when I, when I was a two out and I was married.
And so my husband had kind of carried me through law school and it was like, all right, like enough is enough. So I decided to get back in nursing. I moved to Houston for a little while, got into hospice, which was my favorite job, even though it's. Pretty people think it's pretty sad for me. I feel like death is not sad when it's not traumatic, when it's really a transition, you can kind of prepare for all of those hardships.
And so I really enjoyed hospice. It was a very spiritual and therapeutic thing for me. And they also give you so much PTO and like amazing benefits because it's such a hard job. And so for that year and a half that I worked, I was on vacation every month because I had so much PTO and I was like, you have to use it.
It wasn't like the hospital where kind of things kind of rolled over. So it was like, use your PTO, use your PTO. And so I had a great experience with balance. That was probably one of the most balanced careers I had and flexibility and taking vacations. And yeah, so post law school was difficult, I think for me, because I had a plan and I had an idea of what I wanted.
I couldn't find a base for myself and people weren't willing to give me a chance. I would go to interviews and people would say, why would a nurse become a lawyer? I just don't understand the intersection of the two. And I'm like, who's the chief nursing officer who runs these hospitals. Who's run in healthcare.
So, how do you understand healthcare technology who are who's running insurance companies? Like it should be nurses. It should be people who have clinical backgrounds who can actually make policies that impact change. But in reality, it's not, it's really people who have MBAs and people who have Different degrees that are not necessarily healthcare or clinical backgrounds.
And so after a while, like you get tired of hitting the wall, the brick wall of saying, please let me in. And so I stayed in healthcare, continue to figure my way out, decided to start my own law practice three or four years ago. And then just lots of transition. I really couldn't invest in it. And then the pandemic happened and it allowed me to.
Completely invest in my business and my practice figure out what I wanted to do, who I wanted to serve and how I was going to do both. Right. And so now I was able to say, I am a nurse and a lawyer practicing in both and very happy to do so.
Naseema McElroy: [00:08:01] Wow. That was a lot. That's like you covered a lot, but I want to kind of rewind because I forgot to ask you when you were talking about Hopkins and you said you knew you wanted to work at Hopkins. W like when you became a nurse, like you, you knew you wanted to work there. And it also wasn't my dream to work at Hopkins because the way that I got introduced. To like just the world of medicine was when I was eight years old, there was a doctor that went to the karate studio that I went to and he gave me this book and this book like blew my mind and it was Gifted Hands by being Carson.
And so when I got that book, I, I like, I love that book now. I don't know what Ben Carson is doing with his life right now, but he inspired me so much. So I thought I was going to be a pediatrician and I thought I was going to work at Hopkins. Now it didn't end up going, you know, obviously the medical school route, but when I became an MHA.
When I got my master's in healthcare administration, I wanted to work at, happens so bad. And that was my goal because that was, you know, that, that inspiration from, you know, my eight year old self. And so I got to mention that when you said that that's where you want it to work, but like that had been my dream as well.
Irnise Williams: [00:09:16] Ben Carson also inspired me to work at Hopkins. I think I saw him on Oprah talking about his book and I was like, Whoa, like similar background, struggle to read the book. And I was like, Oh my goodness. So I got to work with him, the alarm, the nicest surgeon ever. Everyone would be fighting to work with him.
He always played classical music. He was so nice. Like most surgeons are not nice, but very patient very kind would ask about yourself. And it was my last day. And he was walking through there's like this area where it's really, really quiet people go there to pray. And I was like, Oh my God, like I had never seen him outside of the, or, and I was like, Oh my goodness, you inspired me to work here. And we talked for a few minutes. I volunteered for his scholarship committee. I used to run to my friends and I would go up to Baltimore and volunteer for a scholarship organization.
So yeah. Definitely don't know who this person is now, but the person who he is as a surgeon, as a provider and just as a person, I thought he was just so amazing and brought such a calm to a place that was so hectic and chaotic. So yeah, definitely inspired. I love it.
Naseema McElroy: [00:10:22] Yeah, I just thought I'd share that because I totally like was thinking about that when you were talking about how it's like, I always wanted to work there. And I guess that that dream has past, and maybe it'll come full circle some kind of way.
Irnise Williams: [00:10:34] You never know.
Naseema McElroy: [00:10:35] You never know, right. But I think that that is so cool that we were both inspired the same way, but what two brushed over that I wanted to talk about was you actually transitioning and going into like law school. I want to talk about like that experience because as a nurse, as somebody who's like, you know, already well into their career, Going back into law school.
I want to know what that experience experience was like. Like, what is your, how did, like, you told me how you talked about how in the workforce, you know, people, when, when you're trying to interview for jobs, people perceived you, but how has that perception in law school and how was it just as a law student already having a degree already having a lot of practical experience? How was that?
Irnise Williams: [00:11:17] Yeah. So a lot of students go straight through, they go from undergrad straight to law school. And so they don't really have. Or perception of the world, whatever you're telling them is what they, what they know. Right. I, and like, no, I don't believe that. Or, you know, I don't know. Like I think, yeah, I have my own perception, my own view, my own ideas.
And I think they did it and not in a bad way. It's just like, they were easy. It was easier for them to absorb the knowledge and in what, what people were telling them, because they didn't know anything else. So it was like, if you did these things and this would happen and people were like, okay, so I'm going to do those things.
And I'm just like, I don't want to do it that way. I feel like if you do it this way, it could potentially happen. And so I kind of was, like I said, Oh, I'm always been a wild child. Always kind of go the different path. And I think it was, I liked law school. But it was weird because I think, you know, how bad healthcare is, but when you really start to understand the criminal justice system and systemic oppression and how racist everything in this country is, it is a hard pill to swallow.
So all of the things that I thought and all of the things that I felt about people who sold drugs or did drugs, or, you know, I grew up around people who did drugs. So like the thought of, well, they. Just made a choice, even though clinically, I understand that that's not always true, but you just don't under, like, why would someone do that?
And then you begin to understand how the system set up communities and allow these things to happen, to destroy the community from within so that they couldn't grow and it angers you. So within the first week of law school, I was like, well, what the heck is going on? Like, this is crazy. Like the first case we read.
And I'm just like, okay. And then next we began to remark cases and just see how judges would essentially just be different in every situation. Like there was no, there's no black and white and it's not even grey. It's just depends on so many different things. And that is what's difficult as an attorney.
You can't just say these are the rules. Like these are the lab values. If it's this as high as this is low, it doesn't work like that. Right. You could have all of these elements and it's still not going to work out. You can have someone who committed murder, got an eye witness, got the gun, got all this, and they still get off.
Right. Or you could have someone who has, they don't have any of the evidence, no eyewitness, no weapon. And now they serve in 40 years. Right. And someone trying to figure out how to get them off of death row. And then you hear about the things that happened in New Orleans and then go to Angola prison. Then you go down, we went down to New orleans to do some work, and you hear the stories of how people are treated. And you're like, what the hell is going on? How. Oh, is this possible?
So from a healthcare perspective, I understand systemic oppression. I understand racism. I understand how we're treated in the hospital, but I think what we forget is that some of us, some people in this country experienced it from every end. So they're treated poorly in healthcare. They're treated poorly by the criminal justice system. They're treated poorly by the housing system. They're treated poorly by their city or community. They're treated poorly by the police department. They don't have food in their communities. They don't have fresh food and fresh fruit in grocery stores and access to capital. They don't have that. And so then we expect them to come out acting a certain way, but how can I, what I've been mistreated and oppressed by so many different systems who all have a goal of controlling me. And then what I, wild out all of a sudden, I'm the person who's doing it wrong. But you can't hold someone down for so long and don't expect them to fight back and how someone chooses to fight back.
It's not up to us that we can't shoot. We can't say this is how you fight back. Cause for some of us, you know, we come out a different way. We're fighting, we're advocating. We're. Going to college or trying to change the trajectory. And for some people issue, not the neighborhood, but some people doing drugs for some peoples it's prostitute or sex work.
Right. How everyone's outlet is different, how you it's like me and my cousins. You put us all in a lineup. It's it's 10 different people, like 10 different outcomes, very similar situations, very similar experiences. Only one got a college degree. Only one got a second degree. Only one who got one. You know, father of my child, right?
Like lots of things going on and it's not because they didn't have as much as I did cause I had it worse in a lot of ways than they did, but that's the way they chose to fight back because of all of the oppression that was around them. And I think that's, what's the hardest thing to go to, to understand is even if I graduated from law school and I get the best job in the world, I can't change all that is happening in my community.
And so even though there are so many lost black, you know, HBCU there, there's so many programs that are out there really producing good lawyers. Right. It's just impossible to fix every problem that we have. And so it puts you in a position of helplessness sometimes, and it's frustrating because I'm like, okay, I understand, I want to fix healthcare, but I also want to fix housing.
And I also want to fix the criminal justice system. And I also want to help the people who've been wrongly convicted. And so now you feel so torn because you can't fix all of these problems and then it leaves you in a position like, okay, what can I do? Right. And I still got to eat. I still gotta survive.
I still got to make money. I still gotta pay back my student loans. I still gotta take care of my family as I think it's, it's deeper than I think anyone can even put in words and people don't understand why lawyers, you know, a lot of lawyers commit suicide, do drugs are because it's the stress and the pressure, not just of the work, like some of the work that they do, like people who are doing commercial transactions and things that are not necessarily oppressive.
It's a lot of stress on them. Right. But imagine what the, my friends who are prosecutors deal with it, my PR my friends who are public defenders deal with, like in a city like Baltimore, where it's a shooting every single day, multiple times a day, children, old people, all of it, like. Baltimore is rocking and it's like, how do you defend someone who may have killed a child understanding that they came from the worst neighborhood on the block?
That's the whole life. Right? And so I think like, yes, it's a cool thing. It's great. It's a great opportunity. But the first week I was like, you know, I stepped into a place. I didn't even know that I that's where I was going.
Naseema McElroy: [00:17:43] I mean like, damn like seriously, like when you were talking, I was like feeling all of it. Like I literally saw myself in your shoes. I could feel every single one of those emotions. And I think , it's kind of like what we have to bear for being the successful ones. You know what I'm saying?
Like we know a lot. But at the same time, we're like put in these positions where we're supposed to be the saviors and we're supposed to help everybody else. But we got a lot of bare life. We have a big burden. It's like, you know, too much, and it's no turning back. You can't reverse those things that, you know, and you want to do all the things, but if like to your detriment .
And so man, like when you were talking girl, I was, I swear, I like self it in my soul because I have been there. I mean, not even going to law school, but just like. I mean, you know, just with my experiences, being an MHA, just as being a nurse, like having to go through the legal system, you know, for various reasons for my family members, for my ex husband, for like all these different things, like just being like a person, a black woman just in America and being educated and being, you know, Of a higher income status.
Just all the things that weigh heavily on you. It's kind of like, I don't talk about it because , who else is gonna relate? But when you said it, I was like, girl,
Irnise Williams: [00:19:23] yeah. And so that's what I tell people. Right? Like you think that like, people are like, Oh, you went to law school and I'm like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, any opera I went to law school during when Trayvon Martin was killed. When Mike Brown was killed, you talk about, we try to figure out what is going on. How can we change a system that is literally like, literally for graduating from law school to If you go work for police departments and help if you're a prosecutor, you work with the police. So how can you hate that? Who you work with? How can you deal with these judges and juries who are saying this is okay, right? Like this is the legal system. This is the system that we are essentially learning to become.
And how do you become a disruptor of something that's so strong? And I think for me, what I have noticed is no matter, like, if we're trying to fix a problem now, They've already figured out a new way to inflict that the oppression. And so we can't essentially fix problems that are happening now going into the future. And focus on the things in the future, figure out how we're going to manage that because that is the change.
We're never going to catch up to them. We're never going to get to the point of we're equals, cause they're never gonna allow it to happen. So we got to jump 10 steps ahead. And enough of us doing that is hard. It's hard.
Naseema McElroy: [00:20:41] And it burns me up that like, after you've gone through all of this, after like you've gone through the lawsuit, you've seen all those things.
Now you're trying to find your place and people are telling you like, well, I mean like, why would you even do that? But like in the room, like, okay. And you like, do you know how hard it was for me to get to where I'm at? Do you know how hard I've worked? How many, psychological and probably physical struggles that I've had to go through to get to where I am.
And now you telling me that because you don't understand my background, that I'm not eligible for this job, for this position?
Irnise Williams: [00:21:20] When people ask me like, Oh, but when did you start your practice? I'm like, it's three years since the expect that. People weren't willing to give me an opportunity.
And then it took me another two years to realize like, Oh, these people are, aren't going to let up every opportunity for them. I was completely qualified for never, like, it was never. They wouldn't even allow me to interview or I would get past the you know, HR and be like, Oh my goodness. You're great.
You're perfect. All of these things, all of these things. And then it's like, Oh no. Oh, we can't, we can't hire you. Same thing with tech, our class, all these healthcare tech jobs. First interview, second interview by the third interview was like, Oh no, thank you. And I'm like, okay, I see, right.
They're not going to allow me to get into the room either. Based on the knowledge that I have, based on my experience, they don't want me to take their job. They don't want me to come in and take my knowledge and start to do something different. They don't want that. And so, because of that, I have to figure out how I could create my own lane and my own way, do my own thing. Still be connected to the community. Still educate, still uplift and empower people, but not essentially, you know, ever get the validation of, yes, you can have this job, this title, this opportunity.
Naseema McElroy: [00:24:05] You know what, and I don't share that story a lot, but. That's kind of the same thing. That happened to me in with my healthcare administration background.
Like I kinda hit a wall where people was like, you are fantastic. Like you show up really well on paper, all of your past experiences you know, speak highly of you. And you know, the things that you've done are amazing, but we don't have no place for you. And that's why I left and became a nurse truth be told because I didn't have a place there. Because of just like you, I'm a wild child and you know, I get things done, but I'm not a Brown noser and I'm not about to play in conform to fit what you think I should be. Like, I'm gonna be who I am. I'm going to do the job, but I'm not going to kiss you, but in doing it.
And so I'm like, I don't talk about that a lot, because like I said before, like a lot of people just don't understand. But you get it and it's sad that it happens, but I mean, at the end of the day, that's why I have this platform because we have to carve out our own lane. .
We have to get ourselves in a financial position where we don't have to be dependent on other people. And as much as, you say like, Oh, if you work hard, you can do this. If you get all into degrees, you can do this. Like, honestly stuff don't change until you can hit people in they pockets and until your pockets are secure.
And I mean, I just feel you, when you were like, it took you so long to just like, realize that you have to do it on your own. Because you didn't want to accept it because you did all the things that you were supposed to do. And excelled at those things, but yet, and still you weren't given the opportunities as somebody that just ain't done nothing.
Irnise Williams: [00:25:55] Yeah. It definitely, it definitely has been in manyslaps in the faith, but I always say all of the nos were the catalyst to get into where I am. Right. If I didn't have those nos, I would be sitting in an office still happy, still doing, make me making more money, maybe having the validation in a title, but not happy.
Right. Because I am had a conversation with someone earlier who was like, you are a disruptor, right? Like in the best way. So healthcare disruptors are people who want to change the way people experience healthcare, the way they engage in health care, access to health care, we're changing the system and we're not waiting for someone to give us permission.
And in doing that and being a disruptor, it makes all of the other people around you, very uncomfortable, even if in the sense of, you know, we could potentially take only a million dollars from an organization. They don't want to lose that million. They don't want that redistrict distribution of wealth in our community, but nobody cares.
That's not my problem. Right. And yes, you can try to hold on to your traditional ways of methods and your traditional ways of engaging with patients and your traditional ways of treating people. But eventually people are fed up, are going to get fed up. They're fed up. Now nobody wants to go to that doctor a wait for two hours.
Nobody wants to go to wait for two hours and only be seen for 15 minutes, right? People who are healthy and young and are paying enormous amounts and insurance would rather get an a more intimate experience, pay cash for their care and avoid having to deal with any of the red tape that is seen in the healthcare system.
And so as much as the healthcare system is saying that they're changing and saying that they're ready and they're doing things differently. Yes. They don't tell telemedicine medicine, but that's only because of a pandemic. You weren't willing to give people access. You weren't willing to give people convenience.
You weren't willing to treat people where they are because you didn't feel that they were, that was valuable. You want it to do things your way and then tell people why can't you show up for your appointment. Right? Why were you late to your appointment? We can't see you today. All those serious. And when you knock those barriers down and you provide people with quality care, all of a sudden you see the trajectory and the change in communities, and we are able to truly get access to rural and underserved communities where putting healthcare practitioners back in the community, it changes the whole game.
You can't control them. You can't push them out. You can't deny their medication. You can't make them wait because the insurance said, no, we got a different way of doing things. And because of that, the healthcare system is definitely afraid of those who are out there doing their own thing. They don't want people to disengage, but they don't want to hire you.
They don't want to pay you. But they also don't want you out there doing cash based businesses where you're making way more money than them, because essentially they gotta submit their claim. They gotta pay for the person who's doing the claim. They gotta pay for the bill and they gotta pay for the back end.
They got to pay for the EMR system. All of those things, just to get that little hundred dollars, then you got to split that with the overhead, the staff and all that. And basically you're doing the run. So penny went out as practitioner can have a whole panel of 500 patients. And if they're paying all cash.
You cut out the middle, man, you don't cut off the insurance company. You got negotiated with the pharmacy, a low rate for your patients. You are got to negotiated requests or one of the lab companies and negotiated a low rate for your patient. That all of a sudden your patients will have a better outcomes than their patients.
And then if they ever find out that community based care is truly, really more valuable than hospital and healthcare system, the whole system of that. And they're not ready for that reality. Right. But it's too bad. It's too late. We're 10 steps ahead of them. Telemedicine was an opportunity. You know, the pandemic was opportunity for telemedicine to enter into our world.
And now there's no going back and people have taken full advantage of that. And that's the people who I support essentially in my business.
Naseema McElroy: [00:29:52] I love the term like disruptor because. And that just fits you perfectly. Like I love it, but in the best sense of the word, but also, but also that all the nos were opportunities and I'm a kind of person that says nothing on my happens to me. It happens for me.
Irnise Williams: [00:30:10] In the process it doesn't feel good, right? It doesn't feel good here. No, it doesn't feel good to be denied a job over and over and over. Well, what I realized is if I never got those notes, I would have never kept searching for my happy. And so now that I'm super happy, I'm super in love with what I'm doing.
I I'm glad that they said no, because it would have only delayed the inevitable, like the inevitable is where I am right now. It would, I would be here regardless if it was. Today or if it was five years from now, this was my final destination or the destination of where I was supposed to be, where I'm the most happiest and the most comfortable.
But that would have happened anyways. And I would have taken the job and not been happy. People would have tried to control me. And then I would have been like, Oh, this isn't for me. I'm gonna leave in a year anyways. Right. And so, yeah, I think sometimes our expectations that we're going to get this opportunity and everything's going to be perfect.
And we go in there and the same problems that we had at the last job, the last experience. It's still exist. And so for me, I said last year, I'm no longer going to try to keep myself in a box and define myself by the world standards. I'm going to go do what I know is best and figure out how to get it done.
Naseema McElroy: [00:31:18] Now you're essentially supporting a whole system of people who are disrupting the healthcare system. And that is so great, which you're talking like cut out the middleman, like bringing those coins make more money. Then these providers that are under The healthcare system, because honestly our healthcare system needs to be imploded. Like it is ridiculous. . I have someone who is coming on the podcast she's a nurse who talks about medical fraud. She is phenomenal. She was just talking about how like she lives in Tennessee and, you know, that's the headquarters for like, ACA like all the big hospital organizations and how much their CEOs who have no clinical experience.
Like make, in one day they make as much as a doctor or a nurse, like a whole medical team. And she was just talking about like all the medical mismanagement that goes into all the way down to a patient's level. And so she used to work like for medical billing, like she would go in and audit bills for on the, on the insurance side and be like, Oh, like, this client didn't really have like five Tylenol's, whatever saved them, like hundreds of millions of dollars on their side. And then she was like, she would call them and be like, okay, so what did you do with this information? Did you pass this down to your customers?
And they were like, Oh no, we just did this for this report. And so she was like, Oh, nevermind. So I'm going to teach the consumers how to do it. Because this just don't make no sense. All these millions of dollars going down the drain. I'm just saying. So that's just like one of that mom, just like this health care system.
I mean, I love being a nurse, I'm the kind of person that I'm a nurse because I don't trust the system. I need to see what's going on in the inside, you know, to keep my eyes, like I need to see what's going on. I was raised. Not using Western medicine. And I know why my dad went that route because it's just, it's not effective. It's super shady. Yeah. It's super shady. But let's talk about your clients that you serve now, how do you help them become disruptors in the medical field?
Irnise Williams: [00:33:32] Yeah, so, there are, I tell people, you know, the healthcare system is broken. This is our chance, right? We can run full speed ahead and take back everything that has pretty much been done to us and fix it.
And so I work with mostly, mostly nurses and nurse practitioners who are opening up their own healthcare related business or practice. I do have some providers who are coaches and do some coaching work. Right. And so, but most of my clients are nurses and nurse practitioners. Or either open it up, have IV hydration businesses or family practices or just some type of health care related business.
And we work together and the sense of. I'm barred in Maryland. So I'm a Maryland barred attorney. If you're a Maryland, I can help you establish your business. Make sure you're in businesses. Strategically set up legally. Maryland is easy, not complicated. Some other States, a little difficult. That's why I don't mess with nobody, California.
I can help y'all a little bit, but from a distance. Okay. Y'all got, y'all gotta find your own attorneys and it's hard to find them who gonna help you out. It's just a lot, but. I work with attorneys at other States. I serve clients and Georgia, Louisiana South Carolina, lots of different States. And I work with attorneys just to make sure their businesses set up legally.
And then we go in and we set up marketing plans. We talk about their ideal client. We talk about how to actually run a business as not just on starting a business, but I'm actually a business owner. So we talk about benchmarks. We talk about, you know, when do you go from. LLC to S-corp when you, should you have that conversation and when should you hire an accountant?
Maybe we should hire a financial planner. We talk about trainings, right? If you're having staff and employees, how should they be oriented to your organization? When should they be trained? How, how do you keep up with their certifications are all the things that are important to you. And we'll talk about, you know, the basics, like lease agreements and all of the requirements with department of health and how they can find those resources.
So I serve more as a resource to them as not necessarily like they, you know, I'd say it's a healthcare and legal consulting business. And so we do more consulting for clients and we necessarily do legal. But I really serve as the resource hub. So you need your, your website that, okay. I I'm, we're going to help find those resources.
You need somebody to run your social media. Like one of my clients now all of my, one of my interns set up all of her Gmail accounts for Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, everything was set up for her because she busy. Right. She does. Family. She's trying to work and set up this practice. You know, one of the things that people don't think about,
one of the things people don't necessarily think about is like, if you're in a practice by yourself, what's your safety plan, right? You're opening and closing and you may have a receptionist, but the receptionist is at four 30. Your last patient is at four 30. You may not lead so five. If that's a male.
Then what happened? So with that client, we created a safety plan and a safety policy. We talked about where do you keep your scripts? How do you make sure that's safe? And those aren't out in the streets and getting stolen. So really thinking about the business, right? We dig a little bit deeper than simply like, you need a contract, you need this, these basics, like, yes, we can get that handle.
We would make work with an attorney to make sure whatever in your States you have those documents, but you gotta really understand business. And what I find is that most people want to. Start a business, but they really struggled to understand business. They struggled to understand business structure for business growth when to pivot how to assess good and bad, like is it, it's not just about money, it's not about revenue.
Just amount about income. It's about automation. It's about flow. It's about. Quality customer service, all of these things. That's how we kind of focus on a broader aspect of business and not just business law. And we support them in that way. So I have a team of an amazing interns who really helped them dig deep.
We help them find funding and resources. We help them find resources to become minority women, business certified. We help them get connected with their local SBA. We help them network and find health-related events in their area that they can go and either network at, in person or purchase ads to explore ideas with them about how they can integrate themselves in their community, find their ideal client and target market them.
And so that they're not essentially waiting for someone to come through the door, but they're creating their own physical funnel that will help them grow as a business owner. So.
Naseema McElroy: [00:37:53] That was our amazing resources. I mean, like it's like soup to nuts. Like it's like everything that you provide for people who are starting their businesses and so needed, because, you know, think about these things, like you said, like most people just don't understand what.
All the little things that go on to starting a business. And I definitely wouldn't have thought about something like a safety plan, but that is like super smart. So I, I know that you're a valuable resource to these people who started their businesses. So when you work with them, do you are you like, do like, like, is it Like a one-time fee or is it like a subscription or like are like a, like a retainer, like a regular lawyer? Like how's the fee structure.
Irnise Williams: [00:38:35] Yeah. So last year I was doing retainers, it was moving a little slow. So I'm, I've heard of the flat fee subscription and flat fee services. And so I'm like, well, let me explore it. There were a lot of attorneys who are doing it. Did some research, ask some questions. And in January I decided to do the flat fee and I didn't want to go too high because I didn't know if I was going to like the process.
And once I realized people were really attracted to that, I doubled the price. Okay. Because I'm like, wait, I'm offering a lot and I have to have a team to help support me. And then. Connect with other attorneys, it's a lot going on. And so yes, they, they signed on for 12 months. They don't have to stay for 12 months, but I tell them it really does take a year for you to really understand all aspects of your business.
And I want you to walk away smarter so that if you started another business, you don't have to start from scratch. You have all the resources, you have all the knowledge, you know where to go, who to speak to all of those things. Things. And so yes, people signed on for a year. They pay monthly, whatever their price is.
It depends how many how much staff they have. So if they have a lot of staff or they have to hire a lot of staff, then the price goes up because then I really have to help them develop a lot of training and documents and job descriptions and policies and stuff like that. So yeah, people pay per month.
And then we meet, we have our initial interaction where we've kind of talked about your needs. I expressed to you what I do. You decide if you want to work with me. And then from there we have a priority meeting where we set a whole list of goals, of everything that we're going to try to accomplish in our time together.
The team gets assignments, and then you just start getting messages of things that are important to you. So, you know, you'll get the welcome message and you'll get all of the different things that are important. So you'll get the resources and the funding and the events and all those things. And then we continue to meet right.
Do they get access to me? Right. Some attorneys charge per email charge per phone call. That's all included until they're able to. Ask questions. And as things come up and if there are any issues or they decide to do vaccines and they need to have some assistance with, you know, reading over contracts and things like that.
So. We do lots of different things, not a normal law practice firm more. I feel like we're more like an agency, right. Trying to give them a holistic experience. And it's because I understand that if I didn't exist the 18 new clients that I have, plus the three other clients that I brought in from last year, I don't know if they would have had an attorney because they like one of my clients.
I could never find someone who understood both healthcare and law. Or understood the internet, like some attorneys aren't don't understand Instagram, like you selling well on Instagram, what is it? How are you selling something on Instagram? Like what does that mean? Right. As I understand YouTube doesn't understand, you know, those aspects of the business.
Right. So for many of them, they're just grateful to have someone who can understand not just the health and legal aspects, but also the creative and marketing that goes into running an online or telemedicine. Even at practice, you still have to be on social media essentially to kind of establish yourself now.
Naseema McElroy: [00:41:24] Okay. So I'm going to just like break it all down. So you're a mom, you're a wife, you're a nurse working still as a nurse. You are a lawyer and you're supporting all these amazing clients. Like how do you do it all?
Irnise Williams: [00:41:45] I think for me, I don't do it. All right. I have an amazing virtual assistant who is she's the truth. You know, I don't know what I expected from a virtual assistant, but I did not expect her.
She does like one time my friend called me at work and was like, I need a therapist, like I'm breaking down. And I was like, Oh man word. Got it. I was like, excuse me. I have, can you help my friend? And she said, a list of therapists asked for her insurance. They like. The truth. Okay. The truth. So I have a team, right.
I have three legal interns, one operations intern. And so they're able to kind of help me navigate that space. We're trying to build up automation. We're trying to make it more fluid. And that's taken some time, but I think the next three is six. It's months it'll be so like, you're a new client you're going to get, like, it'll pretty much be like a bullet point.
PR people may get everything they need in the first three months. So they may not even stay for a year because it's going to be like hair. Right. And so this is what we're offering and these are the education. They. Get a free webinar every month. So last month they got the documentation webinar that I did.
This month I'll be recording a a webinar with one of my colleagues who does trademarks and intellectual property work. So they get also opportunities for education and information that they would not necessarily get in other aspects. So they don't have to go out searching for that information.
Right. So next month we'll be talking about automation and workflows and intake and what that looks like.
Naseema McElroy: [00:43:06] So are you taking on new clients at this time?
Irnise Williams: [00:43:10] So as of April 1st, so by the time this is probably released, I am taking on new clients who have like new businesses in Maryland.
I am taking on clients who have established businesses and really only need someone to help them build the structure of the actual business and other places. So. Focused on the consulting services, because partnering with other attorneys can just get really complicated with a lot of rules and paperwork.
And it's a lot. So if you're established and you're really only in need of like you're struggling in your marketing, you're struggling and finding your ideal patient, you're struggling to build and grow. We're here to help you work and get where you need to go. And yeah, so I am taking new clients.
We'll see how much longer I'm dropping a couple of courses and things over the next few months. And so we'll see how things go in the next few months to see how long I'll be taking new clients. So as of April, yes, we'll take new clients to as many as we can.
Naseema McElroy: [00:44:06] And then how can people get in contact with you? Get on your list so they can find out what you're dropping next.
Irnise Williams: [00:44:12] Yeah. So this weekend I actually just dropped my course, The Healthcare Provider's Guide to Mitigating Malpractice that dropped in some presale mode onto the patient 31st and then early bird, and then launching in may.
And so you can get that at the yournurselawyer@teachable.com. I'm your nurse lawyer on all social media platforms. Facebook Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, LinkedIn, Your Nurse Lawyer is my name. Yeah. And so that's the best way I'm always on Instagram, I'm trying to get into LinkedIn. I'm trying to be more active there trying to find more friends and engaged because I hear there's a lot of business, somebody over there, so I'm trying to get the business contracts, right.
Yeah. And I'm always open to have conversations. I don't always have time. Like today I had 14 calls. I was super busy. Yeah, but I don't do that often, but if people reach out through DMS and I have time, you know, to, to of share some resources, I have plenty of videos and just different information. That's on my page that people can kind of go and explore and enjoy.
Naseema McElroy: [00:45:10] Well Irnise, I knew you were going to come with it, but like, I really didn't expect all of this. Like you are the bomb girl and really. I spoke to my soul and I know there's so many other people out there that probably was like right there with you feeling it, going through it, because this is the kind of people that my podcast attracts.
And so I just appreciate you for just being a real and raw and being your whole self and just being a disruptor in this world, because we need people like you because you are the one who's really going to impact change, not only in healthcare, but just how we interact and move through life because You know, we, like you said, we got to jump ahead.
Like we can't try to keep up. Like we have to jump ahead and you're giving people tangible ways to do that. So I really appreciate you for taking time out to join me.
Irnise Williams: [00:45:57] I feel like people don't ask enough questions about some of those things. I don't always get to share, you know, that's sad. People get just like, Oh, I'm so happy. I'm like, no, this is where you're like, I'll work this part because I know where I came from. And I know where other kids are coming from. So,
Naseema McElroy: [00:46:12] We gotta get below the surface. Like we have to get the real real, because that's what people need to hear. Even if you didn't think you needed to hear it, honey, we brought it. Thank you. Thank you for bringing it. Like, I really appreciate you, but I just, I just see so much, like, I, I know this is just the beginning. But I just see just how much you're going to really impact the world, girl. And I'm here for you!
Hey there I’m Naseema
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